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pgm
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Joined: 14 Jun 2005
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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject:

Dreww wrote:

If this is true then my entire argument is obliterated, and there's no need for me to continue.

I remember Johnny Ramone said he loved Led Zeppelin's first two records.

zeppelin isn't the best

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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject:

Dreww wrote:

I just happen to consistently see a musical world where a historical lack of The Who would result in more chaos than a lack of Led Zeppelin.

Way to put in a nutshell what I spend paragraphs trying to say, Dreww. When I listen to Cream, The Who and Jimi Hendrix from 1968, it's hard for me to hear much of anything significant that Led Zeppelin contributed. By the time Led Zeppelin came together, hard rock was fully formed and already capturing the public's imagination in a big way. Led Zeppelin capitalized on that. They were not a catalyst for it. Jeff Beck Group's 1968 album Truth is yet another example of how little there was for Led Zeppelin to add.

SkullKiD

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 1021

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject:

I think Led Zeppelins influence has more to do with their approach to the hard rock sound than pioneering it. "Classic" hard rock bands along the 70s directly took more from Zep than from The Who - Deep Purple (after In Rock), Queen, AC/DC, Thin Lizzy, etc.. Heavy metal is also very Led Zeppelin influenced, with Judas Priest and Iron Maiden clearly taking a lot from Led Zeppelin.
The Whos lead in infuence is still big, though. I think Zep is just a perfect example of a band with lots of impact, that is, their proeminence in the rock community and among rock musicians is undeniably veeery large so they support pretty well their smaller than commonlly thought influence, and having greeeat popularity and cultural impact, they assecure their ranking among the greatest artists of rock.
Thats how I see it.
Id put them at 15th or 16th and The Who in the top 10 in this list.

ClashWho wrote:

Jeff Beck Group's 1968 album Truth is yet another example of how little there was for Led Zeppelin to add.

I always thought that, while this album has a similar sound to the first Zeppelin album, it i much more a hard electric blues album, while Led took a more modern aproach to songwriting.

ClashWho wrote:

You're back! You've been missed, SkullKiD. You're one of the most knowledgeable posters here.

Actually, Ive been making some posts here and there, but in the last month or so I made two trips across the country and my pc monitor broke (the new one came yesterday), so I only checked DDD three times a week, and posted mostly in the Electronic and Muic Discutions sections.

zeppelin isn't the best

Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject:

SkullKiD wrote:

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I think it's very revealing that all four of those bands you named are more than a little Who influenced. In fact, they're a lot Who influenced, with Angus Young saying Pete Townshend is his only influence on guitar, Brian May saying that The Who is a group "that really molded us when we were kids and beyond," Ritchie Blackmore saying it was hearing Who songs like "I Can't Explain" and "My Generation" that inspired him to write his own songs, and as for Thin Lizzy, they're compared to The Who quite a bit and Allmusic mentions The Who as an influence even before they mention Led Zeppelin.

SkullKiD wrote:

Heavy metal is also very Led Zeppelin influenced, with Judas Priest and Iron Maiden clearly taking a lot from Led Zeppelin.

And they have their Who influences, too. Especially Iron Maiden. That's another band where Allmusic lists The Who as an influence even before Led Zeppelin. One of my favorite Who covers is Iron Maiden's "My Generation". Led Zeppelin's most important influence is in hard rock and heavy metal and The Who are right there with them practically every time. It's why The Who's influence in other areas puts them over the top.

SkullKiD wrote:

Id put them at 15th or 16th and The Who in the top 10 in this list.

That's how I see it, too.

SkullKiD wrote:

ClashWho wrote:

Jeff Beck Group's 1968 album Truth is yet another example of how little there was for Led Zeppelin to add.

I always thought that, while this album has a similar sound to the first Zeppelin album, it i much more a hard electric blues album, while Led took a more modern aproach to songwriting.

I agree with that. The parallels are amazing, though. It's almost like Jimmy Page used Truth as a track for track template for the first Led Zeppelin album.

Nick-ola

Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 9200
Location: Southampton/Nottingham, UK

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject:

I don't think Thin Lizzy sound much like the Who at all, regardless of what rolling stone might say, but in any case they were originally a JHE power trio style band. And a damn fine one at that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvs7i1e3-dM and the best BB King impression ever? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1NLVVKU5Vk&feature=related more Hendrix style power trio stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlQ6g8Y7FvI

seledia

Joined: 20 Aug 2009
Posts: 149
Location: cluj

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:36 am Post subject:

SkullKiD wrote:

[about Zep] (...) their smaller than commonlly thought influence (...)

I think it would be more appropriate to put an "IMO" in front or back of this sentence. There are people around here who may think that this might be an undeniable fact. And is not. Like all the "big pictures" described on this thread (including mines), the "outlook" is in the eye of the beholder. The tally system was, from this point of view, more objective (but more trivial, indeed)

SkullKiD wrote:

Id put them at 15th or 16th and The Who in the top 10 in this list.

Traitor!

Brett Alan

Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 122
Location: Hackettstown, NJ

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject:

I'm only going to hit some highlights here because there's just too much going on in this thread.

Brett Alan wrote:

They defined what the genre sounded like. And looked like. (Whose hair do you think they were imitating?)

And you replied with pictures of the Let It Be cover and Daltrey. I'm confused. How does that address the fact that the "hair band" look is based around Robert Plant?

ClashWho wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

The heavy emphasis on riffs over melody,

"You Really Got Me", "My Generation", "Sunshine of Your Love", "Fire", all riff rock, all hard rock, all pre-date Led Zeppelin.

Sure...but all more melodic than what was to come. Perhaps I'm not explaining it well, but to me the sound of those records doesn't fit with where heavy metal went. Where it went was much more oriented around Zep (and, yes, Sabbath) than The Who or Cream.

ClashWho wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

and the preference for the high-voice wailing singer. You wouldn't have Geddy Lee or Steve Perry if not for Zep.

I think Janis Joplin is the true progenitor of that vocal style.

Again, to me these singers just sound a lot more like they're trying to sound like Plant than like Joplin. Or anyone else, for that matter.

ClashWho wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

ClashWho wrote:

They'll look and sound more like Zep than like the Beatles or the Rolling Stones, too, so what's your point? You aren't going to tell me Led Zeppelin is greater because of freaking hair metal.

No, I'm going to tell you that they're more *influential* because of hair metal and its many relatives. Greater is a whole different thing.

If you think The Who is greater than Led Zeppelin in general, then I'm satisfied, because that's my #1 issue.

Well, I think "greater" is too vague to really answer that question. It depends on the criteria being used. I definitely enjoy The Who's music more--far more--FWIW.

ClashWho wrote:

It's really odd that you're singling out "Panama", because that's one of the more obvious Who-inspired VH songs. As for plodding and riff-oriented Who songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-ZAnil_Mw

That sounds a LOT like "Running With the Devil", actually.

Then there's the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHtVaSmK38s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Or4QGI80Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6fFtWi318s

If those don't convince you, perhaps this will:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpt8RHQmy0

Did I not already say I wasn't following links? Would it kill you to just give me a title? I can find it easily enough if I don't know the song. As for the one you did identify, the fact that a band imitated another band's performance really tells me nothing about what shaped their music.

ClashWho wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

The other three genres are all unquestionably influenced by The Who, but they aren't built around The Who the way metal is built around Zep, jam band music is buit around the Dead, and power pop is built around The Beatles.

Again, every power pop band will tell you how important The Who are. A lot of people will tell you that metal is much more built around Black Sabbath than around Led Zeppelin (and Black Sabbath is more Who influenced than Led Zeppelin influenced as well). In fact, if you go to the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame, you can watch a video presentation of the roots of metal that literally begins with a clip of Pete Townshend playing "Sparks" at Woodstock.

Again, I don't want to get into trivia like who is on what video presentation. It's irrelevant.

I'm not questioning that the Who is very important in power pop--look where I've put "The Kids Are Alright" on the power pop list. But the point still stands that the ultimate core of power pop is the Beatles. Th point about Sabbath is an interesting one, and I'd be curious to hear from people who are more into metal than I about where they think the core of the music comes from.

zeppelin isn't the best

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Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject:

Brett Alan wrote:

And you replied with pictures of the Let It Be cover and Daltrey. I'm confused. How does that address the fact that the "hair band" look is based around Robert Plant?

Who says? I think it's based on the Beatles, Roger Daltrey and Eric Clapton. Dang, that's some impressive hair, Eric. They all popularized the long hair look before anyone had heard of Robert Plant.

Brett Alan wrote:

ClashWho wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

The heavy emphasis on riffs over melody,

"You Really Got Me", "My Generation", "Sunshine of Your Love", "Fire", all riff rock, all hard rock, all pre-date Led Zeppelin.

Sure...but all more melodic than what was to come.

Led Zeppelin isn't melodic? They sure sound melodic to me. "Heartbreaker", "Black Dog", et cetera, seem every bit as melodic as my pre-Zeppelin examples. Heck, stuff like "What is and What Should Never Be", "Thank You", "Tangerine"? That's melodic stuff, Brett.

Brett Alan wrote:

Perhaps I'm not explaining it well, but to me the sound of those records doesn't fit with where heavy metal went. Where it went was much more oriented around Zep (and, yes, Sabbath) than The Who or Cream.

But we were talking about hard rock. See:

Brett Alan wrote:

ClashWho wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

It wasn't, in the sense that most hard rock from the 70s onward doesn't sound like what Hendrix and The Who were doing; it sounds more like Led Zep and what came after them.

That's complete garbage. Here is hard rock fully formed. That's 1967. That even predates Blue Cheer's proto-metal version. Here's some Jimi Hendrix from the same night. So what did Led Zeppelin bring to the table? Jack and shit. And Jack left town.

They defined what the genre sounded like. And looked like. (Whose hair do you think they were imitating?) The heavy emphasis on riffs over melody, the downplaying of the choruses, the heavy focus on soloing (of course Jimi soloed like crazy, but it didn't take hold on metal in the same way) and the preference for the high-voice wailing singer. You wouldn't have Geddy Lee or Steve Perry if not for Zep.

So, you see, we were talking about hard rock, and towards the end there you tried to steer it towards heavy metal. But it doesn't matter, because The Who is more influential to heavy metal than Led Zeppelin is to punk, so they still come out on top in the influence sweepstakes.

Brett Alan wrote:

Again, to me these singers just sound a lot more like they're trying to sound like Plant than like Joplin. Or anyone else, for that matter.

David Coverdale was, I'm sure. Rob Halford sounds more like Daltrey, to me. We can both speculate all we want. Maybe they were all trying to sound like Steve Marriott. If anything, I'd say most hair metal types were going for either a Bruce Dickinson or Rob Halford sound. Or maybe Freddie Mercury. Or Ozzy Osbourne. Or Ronnie James Dio. Or Ian Gillan. And so on. Robert Plant obviously has his followers, but he's hardly the only singer hard rock and metal singers aspire to.

Brett Allan wrote:

ClashWho wrote:

Did I not already say I wasn't following links? Would it kill you to just give me a title?

Sheesh, Brett, you're missing out on one of the best aspects of message board discussions. The links I posted are for "The Seeker", "The Punk Meets the Godfather", "The Real Me", "Trick of the Light" and Van Halen's "Summertime Blues". As you could have learned with a simple click of the mouse.

Brett Allan wrote:

I can find it easily enough if I don't know the song. As for the one you did identify, the fact that a band imitated another band's performance really tells me nothing about what shaped their music.

Are you really going to deny a Who influence on Van Halen? You know, you just say Van Halen is more Led Zeppelin influenced than Who influenced with nothing to back it up but your opinion, and meanwhile here I am providing links, performances, providing quotes from the artists in question and you don't even bother clicking on any of it. This is bullshit, Brett. I've had it. If you want to tell me Van Halen is more Led Zeppelin influenced, then fucking back it up. Because from where I'm sitting, Van Halen have been imitating The Who since their inception, I've got quotes from Eddie Van Halen demonstrating Who influence, their only live release EVER features a fucking TRIBUTE to The Who (and to no one else), and here I am laying all this stuff at your feet and you won't even bother to click on it. This is ridiculous.

Van Halen is the most influential band for all of hair metal and they owe more to The Who than they do to Led Zeppelin. I've got the evidence to back it up and all you've got is what you think.

Brett Alan wrote:

I'm not questioning that the Who is very important in power pop--look where I've put "The Kids Are Alright" on the power pop list. But the point still stands that the ultimate core of power pop is the Beatles.

So The Who get no credit? I could provide you links for the Raspberries, Cheap Trick, Sweet and more demonstrating the influence of The Who, but why bother since you're too busy to freaking click on anything. Sheesh, the very name "Power Pop" was coined by Pete Townshend in a 1967 interview when he attempted to explain what songs like "Happy Jack" and "Pictures of Lily" were. Of course the Beatles are an influence on power pop. So are The Who. Led Zeppelin, however, are not. And that's the point.

Brett Alan wrote:

Th point about Sabbath is an interesting one, and I'd be curious to hear from people who are more into metal than I about where they think the core of the music comes from.

I'm sure corrections and SkullKiD would be happy to hook you up. Hopefully they won't try to provide you with any of those pesky links.

SkullKiD

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 1021

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject:

Brett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akt3awj_Ah8
Please follow this link.
This song was released in 1970. It is the exact point of music history where hard rock turns into true heavy metal. Im pretty sure Led Zeppelin is enormously influential to Judas Priest and Iron Maiden, much more than the Who, but to thrash and the following extreme metal genres they have no direct influence. Sabbath is in the exact inverse situation: they were constantly and enormously influential to thrash, death, black, sludge.
This is a post Ive made in the 100 Greatest Artists thread:

Quote:

Sabbath made rock sludgier, darker, doomier and heavier than ever... no band had ever trecorded anything as horrifying as their s/t song. Metal would simply not exist without them, it would be just hard rock.
Surely, Who and Zep went considerably heavy that same time, especially live, but they never reached that level. They didn't introduced that obcession for the evil, that low tuned sound. Sabbath is the first metal band and directly influence every single band of that genre and many others.

zeppelin isn't the best

Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject:

SkullKiD wrote:

Brett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akt3awj_Ah8
Please follow this link.

Uh, oh.

zeppelin isn't the best

Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject:

SkullKiD wrote:

Quote:

Anyway... the sheer amount of influence dripping off of that clip is astounding. As for thrash metal, what about Motorhead? Are they more influential to thrash than Black Sabbath are? What song would you say is the most thrash metal that Black Sabbath sounded that predates Motorhead? Is it possible that "Communication Breakdown" and/or "Achilles Last Stand" had some impact on thrash? I'm surprised by how slow they sound after listening to those early Sabbath clips. As for The Who, this clip has plenty of moments that are more than a little metal. That's 1970. Here's 1969.

Also, Brett, hate to throw another link at you, but do you really think these guys are trying to look like Robert Plant? The hair thing is one of the things we mocked zepheads for bringing up in the infamous Who vs Zep thread. Can't believe I'm dealing with it again.

SkullKiD

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 1021

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:39 am Post subject:

ClashWho wrote:

As for thrash metal, what about Motorhead? Are they more influential to thrash than Black Sabbath are? What song would you say is the most thrash metal that Black Sabbath sounded that predates Motorhead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixdoWPGpDfw
This one is from 75, and is widely considered thrash already. I believe, thought, that thrash was only fully realised some years later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE--ehEUg5I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUZyEbdQpPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STlvinbRfIo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raA9Gso_to4
Those songs are from 80-83, in chronological order, and are all crucial to the genre. Im not sure how influential Symptom was to those, but it is one of their enduring classics, and, still, Black Sabbath created the fundation of all metal genres, and was constantly revered by metal artists from from black to death to pop metal styles.

ClashWho wrote:

Here's 1969.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eIwfym0TbY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4-rhMjH-tI
Both from 68, and those are the two heaviest songs of the 60s, and most probably the two that are the most influential to metal from the decade. Iommi and Butler were surely familiar to Led Zeppelins s/t, and Dazed is undeniably very doomy. Blue Cheer is a known huge influence to them, too.
To be "heavy" is very different from being "hard", you see.
Thinking again, Page and Bonhams instrumental work have a long and strong standing influence to heavy metal (John specially), and that should count in LZs part.

zeppelin isn't the best

Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:31 pm Post subject:

SkullKiD wrote:

ClashWho wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixdoWPGpDfw
This one is from 75, and is widely considered thrash already.

Man, that is awesome. Can definitely hear things heading in the direction of Metallica. Especially starting at 3:35. Very cool.

SkullKiD wrote:

I'm pretty sure that Led Zeppelin clip is 1969, not 1968.

SkullKiD wrote:

Iommi and Butler were surely familiar to Led Zeppelins s/t, and Dazed is undeniably very doomy. Blue Cheer is a known huge influence to them, too.
To be "heavy" is very different from being "hard", you see.
Thinking again, Page and Bonhams instrumental work have a long and strong standing influence to heavy metal (John specially), and that should count in LZs part.

Agreed. I can hear the difference between hard and heavy, and Led Zeppelin were certainly heavy.

Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T59vynXhbko

That's also 1969. I've been looking for that for years. One of the best live Who tracks ever, I think.

And here's one from 1968 which is also awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGXZpO_ud0U

Led Zeppelin doesn't exist when The Who were playing like that.

Brett Alan

Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 122
Location: Hackettstown, NJ

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject:

Zeppelin isn't the best wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

And you replied with pictures of the Let It Be cover and Daltrey. I'm confused. How does that address the fact that the "hair band" look is based around Robert Plant?

Who says? I think it's based on the Beatles, Roger Daltrey and Eric Clapton. Dang, that's some impressive hair, Eric. They all popularized the long hair look before anyone had heard of Robert Plant.

Yeah, lots of hair metal bands based their look on the Beatles. Snicker.

ClashWho wrote:

Most hard rock in the 80s and forward was heavy metal. More specifically, the way hard rock evolved in that period was towards heavy metal.

And the point I've been trying to make is that you can't treat influence like math. I've said all along, The Who's influence is broader, but I see more artists who were more deeply influenced by Zep--that is, artists for whom Zep is the number one influence by a wide margin. In my opinion, that counts for a lot. But that's a subjective judgement.

ClashWho wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

Did I not already say I wasn't following links? Would it kill you to just give me a title?

Sheesh, Brett, you're missing out on one of the best aspects of message board discussions.

Not to me. Jeez, do you really think that I've never heard "The Seeker", let alone that I can't find it myself if I want to? I'm interested in hearing people's opinions. Skullkid's comments about Sabbath's influence, or even your points about Zep's more melodic material--to me that's what makes the discussions worthwhile and adds some enlightenment to the discussion. If you can add a link to illustrate the point, that's fine, but make the point. I don't have a lot of time to watch videos and I don't know that I'll be seeing what you want me to see anyway. Besides, I do this on a rather old computer, and opening a bunch of windows will probably just make it crash.

Zeppelin isn't the best wrote:

Brett Allan wrote:

I can find it easily enough if I don't know the song. As for the one you did identify, the fact that a band imitated another band's performance really tells me nothing about what shaped their music.

Are you really going to deny a Who influence on Van Halen?

Certainly not. I'm just saying that a particular cover version doesn't add the debate. I mean, you tell me that the fact that there's a version of "Won't Get Fooled Again" on Van Halen's live album is proof that The Who is more influential. I mean, look at the covers on The Ramones' live album--are we going to put Chris Montez and Bobby Freeman among the most influential artists on punk?

Remember, my original point in this discussion wasn't really to promote Zep. It was to say that the discussion was getting sidetracked on lots of insignificant trivia that has nothing to do with the real issues. When there's discussion of real issues, it's interesting. I'm just trying to keep people focused.

Zeppelin isn't the best wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

So The Who get no credit?

Did I say that? Understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that, to me, having a genre based around your music makes you more influential than being one of several influences on thirty thousand bands. And while there are many influences on power pop, it's based around The Beatles.

zeppelin isn't the best

Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject:

Brian wrote:

Brett Alan wrote:

Feedback had been around in blues in the 50s but I'll grant that "My Generation" introduced it into the rock canon, so that's a big one. "Arena rock" and "intelligent use of synthesizers" are too vague for me to evaluate as claims. Rock Opera clearly they were the major players in, and certainly instrument destruction was theirs FWIW.

Actually, feedback was used in rock in Johnny Burnette's "Train Kept a Rollin'" from 1956, and other rock artists used it between then and when The Who used it.

Are you sure about "Train Kept a Rollin'"? I've heard the track and I don't hear feedback. Distortion, yes, but not feedback. I thought it was pretty established that the first example of guitar feedback on a recording is the Beatles' "I Feel Fine" and the first recorded guitar solo with feedback is The Who's "Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere".

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