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zeppelin isn't the best
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach
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 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| pgm wrote: | | pave wrote: | | i said it years ago and got no support. can it happen now? |
I said it years ago as well. I'm a bigger Stones fan, but I still see Dylan as greater. |
I am also a bigger Rolling Stones fan. Much bigger. Still love Dylan, though, and I really need to get more of his stuff. |
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zeppelin isn't the best
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian wrote: | | I think I do agree with ClashWho's central point, though I might quibble on some of the details. I particular, I'm not sure Dylan takes cultural impact. |
Cultural impact is so hard to measure. And it applies to so few artists. We can quantify influence, popularity, and what we're calling 'musical impact' (which is perhaps more aptly named 'peer acclaim') reasonably well, although it's certainly much easier to differentiate blocks of artists rather than two artists very close to each other, as the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan are. But I think we can see a significant bit of daylight between them when it comes to musical impact, and a lot more when it comes to influence. Yes, the Rolling Stones are hugely popular, but Dylan has some pretty impressive credentials there as well.
As for cultural impact, what would we say are their respective contributions? The Rolling Stones have the whole bad boys of rock thing, but it seems to me to be a logical extension of the "rocker" image of fifties artists like Gene Vincent. Heck, when it comes to bad boys, it's hard to top Jerry Lee Lewis. Jerry Lee Lewis and Elvis Presley were downright scandalous. As notorious as the Rolling Stones became, I don't think they were ever scandalous to quite that degree. As for Bob Dylan, he seems to embody American culture. Not to the extent of Elvis Presley. About the only American personality I could put at Presley's level is perhaps John Wayne. But when it comes to American musician icons, Bob Dylan is up there with Johnny Cash, Hank Williams, Louis Armstrong. But is that cultural impact or just being really famous? It's such a difficult part of the criteria to come to grips with. |
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Brett Alan
Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 122
Location: Hackettstown, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ClashWho wrote: | | Brian wrote: | | I do think the Stones should stay ahead of Chuck Berry. |
Whatever the reasons are for the Rolling Stones ahead of Chuck Berry, I think they would apply equally as well to The Who over Chuck Berry. |
They would, if they were as true of the Who as they are of the Stones. |
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zeppelin isn't the best
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Brett Alan wrote: | | ClashWho wrote: | | Brian wrote: | | I do think the Stones should stay ahead of Chuck Berry. |
Whatever the reasons are for the Rolling Stones ahead of Chuck Berry, I think they would apply equally as well to The Who over Chuck Berry. |
They would, if they were as true of the Who as they are of the Stones. |
Like I said. |
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Brett Alan
Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 122
Location: Hackettstown, NJ
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeppelin isn't the best wrote: | | Brett Alan wrote: | | ClashWho wrote: | | Brian wrote: | | I do think the Stones should stay ahead of Chuck Berry. |
Whatever the reasons are for the Rolling Stones ahead of Chuck Berry, I think they would apply equally as well to The Who over Chuck Berry. |
They would, if they were as true of the Who as they are of the Stones. |
Like I said. |
And I'm saying it's nonsense. There are areas where the Stones are ahead of The Who, and there are areas where The Who is ahead of the Stones, but to say that they're equal in every way is patently ridiculous. |
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zeppelin isn't the best
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Brett Alan wrote: | | And I'm saying it's nonsense. There are areas where the Stones are ahead of The Who, and there are areas where The Who is ahead of the Stones, but to say that they're equal in every way is patently ridiculous. |
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that they're so close that I doubt Chuck Berry squeaks between them. I think he should either be just behind them or just ahead of them. My vote is for just ahead of them. |
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Brian
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Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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They really aren't very close. I'd say The Stones beat The Who in musical impact by about as much as The Who beats The Stones in influence, when cultural influence is factored in, and then The Stones have a large advantage in popularity.
Not only does Chuck Berry fit in between them, but Ray Charles too. He beats The Who and Led Zeppelin in both popularity and musical impact, and probably influence also. They might beat him in cultural impact, but if so, not by enough to close the gap. Berry v. Charles is close. Berry takes influence and cultural impact, and Charles takes popularity and musical impact. I'd say Charles takes musical impact by about as much Berry takes influence: a clear advantage, but not a particularly large one. Charles lead over Berry in popularity is large. I doubt that Berry's lead in cultural impact is enough to equal it. It looks to me like a narrow win for Charles.
And I do agree that cultural impact is hard to measure. |
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D.J.
Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 436
Location: Italy, Italian Queen fan #1
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| I don't agree with Berry beating Zep in popularity and i'm not sure about influence too. |
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Georgi
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Joined: 15 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| D.J. wrote: | | I don't agree with Berry beating Zep in popularity and i'm not sure about influence too. |
What? Berry beats just about everyone at influence. |
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zeppelin isn't the best
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian wrote: | | They really aren't very close. I'd say The Stones beat The Who in musical impact by about as much as The Who beats The Stones in influence, when cultural influence is factored in, and then The Stones have a large advantage in popularity. |
Large advantage in popularity, without question, but I think musical impact is much closer between the two than influence is.
| Brian wrote: | | Not only does Chuck Berry fit in between them, but Ray Charles too. He beats The Who and Led Zeppelin in both popularity and musical impact, and probably influence also. |
I disagree with this. This is not a popular music list. It's a rock list. You can't just tally up all of Ray Charles' musical impact, popularity and influence regardless of genre. Only his rock influence, impact and popularity counts. Within the context of rock, The Who and Led Zeppelin beat Ray Charles soundly in every aspect of the criteria. Ray Charles' most acclaimed record is Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music. His biggest selling release is Genius Loves Company. Those records contain jazz, pop, country, R&B, blues and gospel. There isn't much of anything on them that could be called rock. The same can be said of the vast majority of his recorded output.
I'm glad you brought this up, because I'm now convinced that Ray Charles may be too high on this list as it is. On Chris F.'s popular music list, Ray Charles is 12th. There's no way he should move higher when the list is rock. The Beatles, James Brown and Bob Dylan move higher because the vast bulk of their careers and legacies lie within the context of rock. By contrast, the vast majority of Ray Charles' career and legacy lies outside of rock. He ought to stay put, or move down.
Last edited by zeppelin isn't the best on Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:29 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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zeppelin isn't the best
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 23313
Location: Secret beach
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| D.J. wrote: | | I don't agree with Berry beating Zep in popularity |
I don't think anyone has suggested that. |
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Brett Alan
Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 122
Location: Hackettstown, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| zeppelin isn't the best wrote: |
I'm glad you brought this up, because I'm now convinced that Ray Charles may be too high on this list as it is. On Chris F.'s popular music list, Ray Charles is 12th. There's no way he should move higher when the list is rock. The Beatles, James Brown and Bob Dylan move higher because the vast bulk of their careers and legacies lie within the context of rock. By contrast, the vast majority of Ray Charles' career and legacy lies outside of rock. He ought to stay put, or move down. |
But what does "staying put" mean in this context? He's in 12th place, but there are only 4 rock artists ahead of him on the list. So if he ended up in 12th on the rock list, that effectively means that 7 acts pass him because you take out the influence he had in the non-rock realm. If anything, that seems like a lot.
Then again, it's a separate list. I don't think two lists have to be synchronized that way, and in this case I wouldn't want them to since that list has Elvis at number one, and to me there's no question the Beatles ought to be number one here. And I'm sure you don't want to rely too heavily on that list given that a certain band is 20 places above The Who.  |
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pave
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 3939
Location: in Bruges
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| zeppelin isn't the best wrote: | | Ray Charles' most acclaimed record is Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music. His biggest selling release is Genius Loves Company. Those records contain jazz, pop, country, R&B, blues and gospel. There isn't much of anything on them that could be called rock. The same can be said of the vast majority of his recorded output. |
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Georgi
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Joined: 15 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Brett Alan wrote: | | I wouldn't want them to since that list has Elvis at number one, and to me there's no question the Beatles ought to be number one here. |
I think there's a very big question on this point actually. I agree that the lists need not be synchronised, but on this particular case, I think they should. |
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Nick-ola
Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 9200
Location: Southampton/Nottingham, UK
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Georgi wrote: | | Brett Alan wrote: | | I wouldn't want them to since that list has Elvis at number one, and to me there's no question the Beatles ought to be number one here. |
I think there's a very big question on this point actually. I agree that the lists need not be synchronised, but on this particular case, I think they should. |
With Elvis at 1 or The Beatles at 1? |
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